1. Typ0 commented on May 19, 2009 at 11:45 am

Grouse, i think you’ve offered great advice. I would say this offer to live together for a few weeks would be dodgy in the Real World without the offer of an Orfi marriage, which would give him rights over his “wife.”

Sorry to be a naysayer, i would advise strongly against this.

2. trailing grouse commented on May 19, 2009 at 12:10 pm

Hi there! I’m not sure we disagree! I just don’t think she should live with him for a couple of weeks in the first place! Not yet at any rate.

3. ms four commented on May 19, 2009 at 1:29 pm

This is a very common scenario. Whether he wants her for her money or sex, I cannot say. And if she wants a fling for a few weeks, where she’ll be expected to spend lots of money on him, then go for it. Just know that it’s essentially like hiring a gigolo–they’ll tell you what you want to hear to get what they want–again, either sex or money.

There’s a whole industry of older western women who go to Luxor and have Egyptian boyfriends every year. Sometimes they are sad to find out these guys don’t really love them.

So, I say (obviously without filter!), that if you want to hire a prostitute for a few weeks and have some fun, it sounds like this relationship is for you.

4. Almost American commented on May 20, 2009 at 4:21 am

Hmm – I second all Grouse’s comments! And to be quite blunt, if she is 35 and single I suspect she is probably feeling extremely flattered by the attention from a younger man. That is NOT a good reason to follow up on this and try to make it into a real relationship!

5. Abu Dhabi Daily Photo commented on May 20, 2009 at 11:29 am

I wish I had a piastre for every time I heard heard a story like this one. This scenario is as old as the pyramids. My advice would be: no, no, and no. I don’t mean to be harsh, but you’re taking him at face value. Whatever his motives (sex, money, eventual passport, etc.), they are not in your best interests. I hate to say it, but this one, regardless of how well he’s playing the part, is angling for something. From a legal and practical standport, that orfi marriage won’t even get the two of you into a hotel.

6. Masriya commented on May 20, 2009 at 10:09 pm

I never comment but this time i feel i have to.

Very realistic and well said, Grouse.

I married an egyptian man, same age as me. In the end, from all the cases that i know, including myself, all of them are after 3 things: sex/money/visa.
The one who was everything to me, my “half in this life” did not hesitate much in replacing me for a 25+ older than him relatively wealthy dutch woman.

These men know the game very very well. They are specialists in playing the role of being poor good guys with no chances in this life and just wanting for a good woman to share life with. LIES.

Not to mention all the cultural differences and that is normally the woman the one who has to “adapt” and besides pay, she is the lucky one who lives in the 1st world. Seen thousand times and believe me, it is heart destroyer.

My advice: NO Papers, orfi or any other kind.

As someone said above, that is prostitution not a relationship, lets call things by its names. If both parts know it and agree, its ok. The problem comes when the heart is on the game…

7. tucking_fwit commented on May 21, 2009 at 6:54 pm

I’m a journalist based in the Mideast. I spent nearly three years in Cairo and I’m afraid I could write a book about older foreign women being lured into pointless relationships with younger Egyptian men.

Many of these women who were not that attractive would not get this attention from males in their home countries. It was common to see overweight, rather unattractive middle-aged women hand-in-hand in the streets with good looking young Egyptian men.

In Arabic culture marriage to an older woman is generally unacceptable and having children is very important too, which makes these relationships impractical from that point of view alone.

But a country with high unemployment and few job prospects can make young men especially attracted to a foreign passport and foreign meal ticket in the form of an older not-too attractive woman.

Sex starved makes the free sex these women offer even more “attractive”. The boost the older women get for their self-esteem and ego is strong too.

There are even those older foreign women who “keep” younger Egyptian men by visiting Egypt frequently for a few weeks each year. The visist comprises sex romps and fun with the young men who are supported by these women through the year from their home countries.

It is the female equivalent to older European men going on sex tours to the Asian countries where they use young girls to satisfy their lust.

It was also one of the oldest subjects discussed at the ex-pat club I went to. Even those relationships that ended up in genuine marriages, which lasted a number of years, normally ended up in divorce.

If both parties are aware of the deal and it still suits them fine. But I think there are way too many gullible western women who fall for this bullshit.

8. Kyra commented on May 23, 2009 at 10:02 am

I just returned from a vacation in Egypt and had the same experience. While taking my sister, mother and I to the Luxor airport our taxi driver explained how and why many young Egyptian men are making these arrangements with older western women. He was very open and my sister and I decided that many of these young men are a commodity to the Egyptian economy. However, it is very easy to be wisked away in the romantic notion of a young handsome man paying extreme attention to you. So, if you decide to go. Go with a clear mind that you know what you are getting yourself into. Would you spend two weeks with a man from your own country with the amount of contact and knowledge of him. Take it for the face value- If you want to have a fling make sure you are safe and have a back up plan. And if you think you really have feelings for this person go for a visit and get to know him and his family but don’t sleep with him. And if his feelings are true he will value you more for not sleeping with him and hold you at a higher standard. And there is nothing wrong in putting the question out to him. What is he really after? I know and I don’t want any future with the waiter I met. But, I really care for him and want to better he and his families life financially. I have the funds to give but I don’t want any strings attached. Hopefully, we will both get what we want out of our relationship.

9. Nora commented on May 25, 2009 at 1:39 pm

If you feel compelled to ask complete strangers online for advice on your relationship with an Egyptian, it will almost certainly end in disaster. I have seen it happen over and over. Just asking like this is a big predictor of failure.

10. Rhonda commented on May 28, 2009 at 5:50 am

I am in a relationship like this for three years. I can’t say it is going well and in fact this week I am reversing a lot of my own behaviors. I don’t regret it. I learned a lot, made a lot of friends, expanded myself in many ways. I don’t think I ever expected it to last, but I do think there is and has been a lot of love. I think the most important thing is not to do something permanent or stupid. Don’t give a lot, if any, money. Don’t sign away any rights. Don’t expect it to last. Enjoy it while it does. I know it is easy to judge this. Easy for others to see what a silly person you are being. That is ok. Listen and watch. Don’t isolate.

11. mariha commented on June 05, 2009 at 12:52 am

well i feel have to update evryone with there comments. i did return to sharm an this man who i thought was genuine turned out to be so so true i arrived at the airport and booked myself into a hotel for 1 night and in the morning my lovely amn came to the hotel in a taxi to collect me which i must say i was aprehensive!! we then booked into another hotel where there was various nationallitys staying and had the best 9 days ever….. i was treated like a queen i was never asked for a penny of my money and when i offered to pay for shopping i was told no i am the man i look after you as for egyptian men asking for things well he did ask me for something he asked if i could bring 1 bottle of champange with me to celebrate our time together so all in all i payed for a flight and a bottle of champers!!! i did go to the shop and but a few extras thou i lay at the pool with him he put lotion on we ate we slept we danced we had fun as for my return to sharm well i have just booked 2 weeks at the end of aug.what i will say he only had 6 of the 9 days off work that i was there but came to the apartment after work he said his boss would only allow the 6 days off he now has told his boss he needs more holidays for when i return so to cap it all my first trip was amazing and will update on my next return, may i add he still said he wanted to stay in his country and that when i return if i wanted we would look for work for me so i could stay[ yes i hear it all now]when i work or stay there thats when the visa question comes up watch this space……

12. Sally commented on June 30, 2009 at 3:56 pm

Dear Grouse…Please can you( and maybe other’s) give me your opinion on the following…..

My friend (42yr) met a young Egyptian chap (25yr) on a bridge in Cairo, whilst on holiday there..they chatted and (to cut a long story short)she married him soon after, they both now living in England..he is just about to apply for his
” right to remain ” visa, having been here two yrs.

When she married him she knew he had a young son and was divorced (he showed divorce papers when they married at some official office)His Father and family( except one brother) did not know about her,he always said they would not approve and he didnt want his “ex wife” to know or she would take his son away….

The “marriage” has not been good, he is a lier and thief (proved) a violent bully (ive seen the marks) who does as he wants, when he pleases. (why oh why is she still “with” this person, I ask myself)there is so much more I could tell but I guess you have the picture by now!

About six week’s ago he told her he is still married to his “ex” (apparently they did divorce but remarried “for the child”)He has always been in regular contact with the mother of his child(often for two hours at a time)
Three week’s ago he went “home” for a visit and to tell his “wife” he is going to divorce her…he has returned saying..the only way he can get the divorce is to pay her £30,000, due to a contract he was made to sign, by her mother when they remarried..also he say’s that if he doesnt get “rid” of her it is his duty to have sex with her every time he goes back, even though he has no “feelings” for her!!

Now….my friend bought an apartment in Cairo last year, (for which she is paying a loan here)he suggested, they sell that, he will pay the proceeds to his “ex” and take over the loan payments here!!!!!! Sounds far to convenient to me!!!

MY FRIEND HAS AGREED….

I do so worry about her, she has talked about selling her house here to help him….

Anyway what I would like to know is….am I correct in thinking he is in this country illegally as the marriage is not legal…due to him showing fraudulent documents..

I do not believe this person is genuine or to ever be trusted…

What do you think???? any advice/ help would be most welcome……Please

Some may say “let her learn” by her own mistakes…but we have been friends a very long time and I worry so much for her…she is living in a sad make believe world…with great SEX!!!!!

Many Thanks
Sally

13. MM commented on July 12, 2009 at 3:44 am

I am having a bit of the same problem.

I met a younger guy in Egypt(but not that younger – 27 and I am 33 and very young looking). I am already married but we have a very free and opened relation with my husband.

I am not the trusting type and I am pretty lucid about the whole situation. That being said, I would like to go back in Egypt and be with him for a while. Maybe 2 weeks. He is telling me we have to get an orfi contract and that I can keep the paper with me and destroy it once I will leave Egypt.

I have been searching around the net about it. I have been reading a lot of different stories. Some say to never sign anything, some say it is just a F*** licence and so on.

I don’t intend to make my life with this guy, in fact I really don’t know but I wouldn’t be totally heart broken if it was to end between us. He also knows I am married and couldn’t marry him in the country I live in. Also just like Mariha, he doesn’t want to leave his country and was always really disturbed when I wanted to pay anything and never let me do it.

Could you please help me and tell me if there is other ways to stay with him while in Egypt (we plan on booking a room in an hotel for 2 weeks).

Thank you very much for your site and for adressing the issue. I am a bit scared right now and saddened by the complexity of it all.

14. trailing grouse commented on July 17, 2009 at 7:13 am

Hi MM, Sorry for the delayed response. I honestly don’t know if there is another way you could stay with him without the orfi contract. Egypt is a conservative country, particularly outside tourist resorts, so the ‘rules’ and laws are definitely not set to help people in your situation. I am almost certain that you would not be able to book a hotel room together, because hotels will ask to see your marriage papers (of you and your Egyptian friend that is) because of the laws relating to unmarried Egyptians. Landlords work under the same laws. You may be lucky and find a landlord who would let you rent an apartment for a short period, but this would be entirely an individual landlord’s decision, and one that would be against the law as I understand it. It doesn’t mean it’s impossible, just very hard.

I have heard of people booking two rooms in a hotel and trying to get them close to each other. I have never (yet) heard of people being successful in that though, and in one case I heard of a couple who were checkup up on every night by a phone call, or knock on the door by security. Being found in the same room in the middle of the night, they were thrown out of the hotel.

Egypt is a beautiful country, the people are fantastic (as you have obviously found out!), but it is not Europe. You may think you have a right to come back and spend a couple of weeks having a nice time in a hotel with this guy, but the country’s laws, and the majority of its people, do not share that opinion. Whether that is right or wrong, isn’t really for us, or at least me, to say, because it’s just a different way to ours. So, while I know of people doing what you want to do, I do not know exactly how they did it, and legally, I cannot advise to do it.

As for signing the orfi contract if you’re married somewhere else, I doubt that technically you would be able to do that: men can do that already married, but women can’t. In reality, it might not be a problem if you don’t say you’re already married. The difficulty, however, is that if you sign something, it will be in Arabic, and unless you have a certified translation, you won’t know what you’re signing. That is never advisable in any situation.

I’m sure this isn’t of all that much help to you, and it certainly isn’t great news, but it is the way I see it.

15. Jojo commented on July 29, 2009 at 5:55 am

I have been a reader now and as yet never commented but just had to comment in responce to Mariha’s post and update (as well as your comments and advise TG). I too am in the same situation as Mariha, having met a lovely guy while on holiday in Sharm. We to have been in constant contact since my return and have been speaking about me going back to visit as well as him visiting me here in the UK. I have also had the same concerns as many women before have had about these situations but believe you can only live your life once and must do what YOU feel is right so like Mariha i will be returning and seeing this guy and fingerscrossed things work out ok. So i’d like to hear from Mariha of your progress / updates if possible, and as for TG keep up the good work i love your blogs )

16. Samara commented on August 08, 2009 at 1:38 am

I met this guy in Dahab and we’ve been talking for 5 months now and I’ve gone there one more time to visit him.

It’s a tricky situation because I am Muslim and I understood Egyptian culture well because I have egyptian friends and also, because my father is a minister in Islam, we tend to have the same cultural ideologies as arabs.

He is originally from Cairo and lives basically in the ghetto. His english is not that great but we understand eachother. Very good looking. He’s 24 and I’m 32 although I don’t look or act my age but I guess you can probably see that already;)

I’m not sure if I will marry him or bring him to Canada. He makes me feel amazing but having been married once already, I also know that there’s always a honeymoon stage in every relationship.

My concern is that I still can’t read him. I think he really cares about me but after reading all these posts, I tend to second guess everything he’s saying. I did sleep with him and yes it was great but I thought that after sleeping with him, he for sure wouldn’t introduce me to his parents, but he did, even though his father was hesitant to meet me. It turned out his family is very nice and very sweet. They were surprised at how cultural I was.

I don’t know. A part of me says there is something there but it would take alot of effort on my part to have him build his life here in America. Another part of me still wonders what his motive could be. I do the calling and I paid for him while I was there and he was honest with me beforehand and said that he isn’t working in Cairo and that he won’t have any money.

To me, it’s not so much that these guys are luring. I think it’s more that they think they will just make the marriage work somehow. I mean their goal is probably to get a visa and to have sex but I think some of them assume that they will just make it work once they get married not knowing that marriage is difficult even for the best of relationships. Anyway, that’s my rant for the day:)

Any thoughts would be helpful:)

17. smc commented on November 08, 2009 at 11:50 pm

Hi,

First of all I would like to say that this is a great blog. So informative and humorous.

After reading all the comments with regards to Egyptian men and Western women, especially in Sharm, I feel a little confused.

I had a ‘fling’ with the waiter at our hotel. In fact, that’s putting it rather politely. He flirted all week, I didn’t respond, and on the last night I asked him out and we spent the night together.

I gave him my number (which he requested) as I am going back in a few months to do some diving. Quite frankly I never expected to hear from him. In my mind this was just a casual encounter.

I was really surprised to receive a text once I got home and the content baffled me, given we’d only been with each other for a matter of hours!! He said how much he missed me, liked me, thought of me etc… My reply was very friendly but did not echo his feelings. I did however mentioned that it would be nice to see him again. This was a few days ago and he never replied.

So, here is my question: I am pretty sure that his words are not heartfelt, but if he bothered to make contact for whatever plan/reason, why is he not pursuing it?

Any thoughts welcome.

18. trailing grouse commented on November 09, 2009 at 9:44 am

Hi there,
I would say that your reply was the key. It could be that he ran out of credit, is waiting for more before he sends a reply. Basically though, and I realise this will seem rather harsh, but lots of these guys work on a “for every 10, one will say yes” type of principle. So, he got something from you, saw that you weren’t falling head over heels in love with him and that you were going to be a bit of hard work. Meanwhile, he’s trying it on with other women at his hotel, or wherever, and has come across one who is more gullable.

In perspective though, you had a nice time with him. Remember that and forget about the text. As you say, given that you’d only been together a few hours, it’s impossible for his feelings to be that strong and heartfelt.

TG

19. Mrs A commented on December 30, 2009 at 2:33 pm

No Orfi.

No to staying with him, get your own hotel and he can drop you off there at night.

Before marriage, meet and talk to his family, its expected.

If his family show no concern that he is marrying a foreigner…is that not strange?

Get to know each other, get engaged and go back home and get to know each other via the net, find out what his views are about the West, western women, western values, what he expects of a marriage, roles responsibilities etc etc.

Many non muslim women marry a muslim man and say ‘I am happy for the kids to be muslim’… Are you? What does this mean, do you know? If you are happy with Islam, why do you not want this for yourself?

Please ask yourself these questions and take your time!!! Egyptian engagements commonly last for a couple of years.

Marry in haste, repent in leisure, still holds true today

Trust me, I speak from experience. But I am now remarried and did things the sensible way, I got to know my husband and our understanding of Islam (we are both muslim) matches. Whereas I find many muslims (including my ex husband) see things completely differently to me.

God created all of us to care for each other, not to fight or judge, NEVER marry anyone who disrespects the West or doesn’t understand western values. Sadly many Muslims in the West already are too judgemental of non muslims, personally I hate that.

Salaam

20. Mrs A commented on December 30, 2009 at 2:36 pm

oh I forgot…NEVER pay for him either.

If he is genuine, this would be shameful for him.

21. T C commented on February 21, 2010 at 9:56 pm

I advise all ladies thinking of entering any relationship with Egyptian men. I started one with a waiter at the hotel i was staying at. He persued me when I returned home, he was full of flattery, i visited him a few times and he thinks that i should pay for him to improve his life, he is not so nice now I have said no. Please take care as I would not have said that he was capable of the things he says and does now.

I met all his friends, family, so they must have been in on it too.

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